“..come together again so that Satan will not tempt you
because of your lack of self-control…”
I’m blessed not only with a good wife, who has abiding contempt for feminism, but lots of female friends who hold toxic man-hatred in contempt as well. This is more or less a planned reality on my part, because life, in my view, is too short to spend with people—male or female—who get all tribal and clannish about their underpants.
This doesn’t mean we should be on the path towards unisex egalitarianism, rigorously demanding a 50/50 gender split in every profession and a deadlocked democracy within every marriage. I don’t agree with Matt Walsh all the time, but he was absolutely right about the poisonous fruits disrespect for husbands will bear in any marriage. Men have a particularly difficult time abiding wives who belittle them and wives who put an emotional price tag on their affections. Only the weakest of men will abide that. Female bickering, nagging, insulting, and frigidity will kill a marriage long before it is formalized by divorce.
For honorable people, however, there is a dilemma caused by the contractual, covenantal nature of marriage. When we promise to “love, honor, and respect, forsaking all others,” in practice, the “forsaking all others” is the only part of the vow with any teeth. Everyone understands a spouse who calls for divorce because of infidelity. Certainly, that’s an ancient, Biblical truth. But what about the wife who belittles, nags, and begrudges her affection? What about the man who perpetually withdraws emotionally? The frustrated marital victim of those failures is told to “be patient.”
“Love, prayer, and patience” are certainly fine tools against these slow, grinding marital termites, but “hard core reformation” (fumigation) is sometimes necessary as well. Young husbands, you need to train your wives. Young wives, you need to make your expectations clear. If your wife is nagging you, or being frigid, those are not “accept me as I am” realities. That has to change. If your husband is thoughtless, unwilling to talk, and has no investment in romance, he needs to be told as much.
In practice, I think feminism comes to the assistance of women, on this front, even in the church, in ways that make their complaints more effectively addressed than those of their male counterparts. What pastor, after all, has trouble telling the men of his congregation to “love your wife?” Love is very easy, very comfortable pastoral territory. On the other hand, most pastors would need an athletic supporter and a stainless steel cup if he were to preach, “women, stop nagging your husbands and give them some good sex; see if that gets you the love you crave.”
The apostle Paul knew the potential problems millennia ago, when he advised couples: “Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” It sounds like the amount of sex you should have as a couple has everything to do with mutuality. If either side is being denied, it’s not enough.
And temptation, according to scripture, seems to have a lot to do with how happy you are sexually in marriage. These days, people act as though pornography springs purely from the selfishness of men, but it might have a little to do with the selfishness and frigidity of wives as well? (I’m aware this works in reverse too, and that women seek both emotional and sexual pornography when they are unloved, but even the hint that pornography might be the result of inattentiveness on the part of a spouse, male or female, seems to be a forbidden topic of conversation these days. It is the question you simply can’t ask: “well, were you rationing your sexuality? Did that have any role in this problem?”)
The terrible awkwardness of talking about sex works to advance another marital poison. Let’s put it this way: if a woman were hungry for real love, real thoughtfulness, and a man were “faking it” with last minute flowers and gifts that showed no real attention to her needs, we would have no problem talking about apocryphal love. There is no danger in pointing out fake thoughtfulness, fake love. But what about apocryphal sex? If a woman were to give every evidence of actually disliking sex, actually seeing it as a chore, if she removed her clothing begrudgingly, if she showed contempt for women who played the seductress with their husbands, if she endlessly “spiritualized” every sexual encounter, would it be any real surprise if her mate properly grumbled that not only was she faking it, but that she didn’t put any value in even putting on a good act? At least the guy who bought the last minute flowers was trying. He doesn’t barge in the door and shout, “well, there’s your damn flowers.”
The Song of Solomon lovers are absolutely unapologetic about good sex. Yes, of course, they love each other. Yes, of course, they are committed to each other, but if the actual text was not recorded in scripture, you can almost hear a few Baptist wives out there, bitching about the idolatry of all the bosom and belly-button and liquor talk. Sound marital advice, and I think sound scriptural would be: “women should try being a little pornographic with their husbands and husbands should be a little more “romance novel” with their wives.
Ignoring all of this, at the very least, will put your marriage in danger. At the worst, it could bring it to a bitter end. Taking vows, and only observing the ones that please you, the ones that won’t destroy your house with an abrupt earthquake may end up bringing it down by decades of nibbling termites.
In six months the 30th anniversary of my wedding will arrive. It’s been hard since day one. The marriage wasn’t consummated for two weeks since she “wasn’t ready,” and after that it was an ongoing struggle of neglect and rejection. I was patient, but she turned on me with, “all you want me for is sex,” and “it makes me feel like a prostitute,” when I asked and of course she never initiated.
I tried romance, I tried doing more around the house and with the kids, I tried abandoning all of my own interests and activities (and friendships) as a means to spark her interest in me. I mean, that’s what all the Christian marriage manuals and counselors we went to see told me. I just needed to make my wife feel loved and then she would respond to me. It just never seemed that she ever got to the point where she felt loved enough. It took me 25 years to understand that the church knows nothing about what to counsel in this situation. My friends have told me not to lose faith and I haven’t lost faith in God, but I have no reason to have faith in her. I truly believe in miracles, but sometimes, for whatever reason, God doesn’t give a miracle.
I have tried to be a good father, a good husband, a good provider, a good man. I have raised my children well. But I was never good enough to have her love me.
She still enjoys my company and welcomes date night and general hanging out with me. I’ve described it as her wanting a boyfriend, but I’m not willing to be a boyfriend.
We’ve gone through many dry spells sexually, including one that lasted over two years. Many others have gone months at a time. In recent years, it hasn’t only been sexual rejection, but lack of affection shown as well. She will go a week without touching me. In a way the lack of sex is better than the rejection I feel even when having sex. If I try to touch her, she literally recoils. Rips my heart out.
Of course there have been lots of talks, and I’ve done everything I can think of to get her to understand the importance of this to our marriage. I thought I finally had her on board to some degree when I returned from a trip and she delayed sex for several weeks. I told her it was unacceptable for her to do this. On the next trip, it happened again. Again I explained that this was not acceptable and I would not tolerate it. She had responsibilities in our marriage and I expected her to fulfill them.
When the next trip came, she was on it with me. I initiated and she turned me away, saying, “I know it’s been a long time, but I’m really tired.” Since I am ever patient and thoughtful, I don’t press the issue. When we return home four days later, I have expectations, but I am tired of the rejection. For two and a half weeks I wait, each night laying in bed next to her. It’s destroying my sleep patterns and affecting my work.
I’ve decided that I’ve had enough. Two weeks ago I moved out of our shared bedroom and into the bed my office. She did not question it or ask why I made the move. It’s been very helpful to me, as at last I sleep soundly. I’ve started to engage in a long-neglected hobby which I have sorely missed. I make every effort to be pleasant and hold up my end of the household needs, but I am not making any attempt to romance her or engage her emotional needs. I’m not doing it to punish her, but see this as the life she has chosen for herself and for us. I will NOT be her boyfriend.
As for our future, I know she was hoping the kids would do something big for our 30th anniversary, but frankly, I’m tired of the charade and hope they won’t. My youngest will graduate high school in about four years and after that I’m thinking about buying a small RV and traveling a bit to indulge my love of history.
We won’t ever divorce, but she left me a long time ago.
Terribly sad. When I began writing about sexuality, one woman confessed to me that her husband hadn’t touched her in eleven years.
What do you mean by her desire for you to be her “boyfriend?” A platonic boyfriend?
Yes, someone to go out to dinner with, to go to the movies with, to go to coffee and play games with. But even in that there’s little physical touch or affection shown. No kissing or holding hands. She might take my arm while walking, but that’s about it. Doing all that stuff with her just frustrates me, because I’m the one that gives and it’s seldom reciprocated. And on the rare occasion that she’s not too tired, or has a headache, or has a project she’s working on or a TV show she wants to finish watching, and we do have sex, it’s unsatisfying and I end up laying there feeling rejected. I want to just tell her not to bother, but in the past I never said no because I never wanted her to feel the rejection I feel so often. If she came to me now, I’d ask her if it was because she wanted it or because she was doing it to make nice with me. I already know the answer to this question and expect that I’ll turn her down.
The ironic thing is that the Scriptures encouraged me to marry so that I wouldn’t burn, well I got married and got burned in a different way.
Very sad. There’s a misconception about men, that we’re testosterone driven brutes, anxious only for consummation, but sex for us, is something like what it must be for women; we don’t “believe” the actual act if it hasn’t been preceded by the hand holding, kissing and hugging that signal “want” on the part of our partners.
Does your wife ever confess her view of sex itself? Does she have some guilt about the act, or just lack of interest?
Prior to marriage we were somewhat sexually involved, without intercourse. We wanted to be “pure” Christians, but kept going where we shouldn’t have. Hands went various places and she was certainly orgasmic. However, even before marriage she was uncomfortable talking about sex and after we were married it became apparent that she thinks of it as dirty. This may be subconscious, as if you talk to her, she’ll talk about sex being beautiful and God-ordained. She thinks of any variation in sexual positions as “perverted,” so there are exactly two positions allowed. I can’t kiss or touch her breasts or let my hands wander as they did before marriage. Before menopause, she would occasionally (once or twice a year) become very sexually engaged during her cycle. But that was 12 years ago.
As far as lack of interest, if I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard, “I don’t like it,” or “If I never had sex again, that would be OK,” I think I’d have a comfortable nest egg.
Maybe our early sexual activity drove some guilt (well, it definitely did) but she’s not said that it’s a factor to her aversion. The fluids involved are “gross,” she hates the appearance of a penis, and her anxiousness to bring an end to the activities is apparent. As I said, all she wanted to do was cuddle on our honeymoon… and pretty much for the rest of our lives.
My last check showed that I have the testosterone levels of an 80 year-old man and I’m only 50. I’d hate to know what things would be like if they were normal.
For what it’s worth, thanks for sharing your experience. I think it helps identify what I’m guessing is the central source of the problem: a lack of desire caused by shame. I’ve never bought the argument that pre-marital sex is necessarily the root cause of shame later on. I think it starts earlier and has something to do with our covetous nature. While women covet the bridegroom, they can enjoy him. When they no longer need him, they are ashamed they once needed him in a way they now consider disgusting.
..and this goes on into marriage. They need the bridegroom to answer their biological clock and fill the nest with chicks. They move on to coveting family. When the family is there, they don’t need the bridegroom anymore at all, and it takes a truly Christian woman to understand it was about more than just replenishing. It was about love. And good sex.
Yes, I agree with you on this. In the last five years I have learned far more about the female nature and issues of attraction. I can tick off a checklist of what made me attractive to my wife as a young man, but once the ring was on her finger things changed. She still “loved” me (after all she had attained me) but the make-out sessions she was enthusiastic about earlier were now gross to her. After marriage, she noticed, and remembered from then on, my shortcomings. I can never escape them. If we ever have a serious argument, past failures are at the front of her mind, even if I am trying to deal with a different issue. We can never talk about her issues, it is always rolled back on where I have come up short.
She also has the family fixation in a big way, and though she can recognize areas of sin in her life (such as anger and discontentedness) she fails to see the huge impact this has had on her kids. Now that most of them have reached adulthood, she struggles with the strained relationships that she now has with them. I have tried to tell her that this is in part because of the sense of disapproval she puts out (I get the same thing) but she becomes upset at any hint that she bears any fault.
Our spiritual lives are separate these days. She is very big into prayer, but I can’t bring myself to pray with her for any length anymore because I become overwhelmed with a sense of her hypocrisy. She is also quick to talk of the need for holiness, but for some reason this never extends to obeying the Scriptures regarding wives and sex, which she is well aware of. I used to teach in the church and I was offered a deaconship, but I feel that the state of my family has disqualified me from church leadership.
If I dwell on it, I can become bitter, so I don’t. Mostly I’m just sad for what could have been.
I would say that “they don’t need the bridegroom anymore at all” is a bit of an overstatement. They’ll take his provision and his name (which gives social standing – few normal women want the stigma of not being able to get – or keep – a man). Within an serious Christian context where divorce is off the table what can a man do about this situation? Or the woman you mentioned earlier? Follow the Matthew passages about your brother or sister in sin and take it to the church? Excommunicate a depriving and unrepentant spouse?
I was discussing your case, and others, with a pastor friend of mine and he thought it was a valid concern. If infidelity breaks the vow, why wouldn’t longstanding withholding of affection? Even if that were just preached in church, as a likely outcome, it might have the effect of putting behavior-changing fear in the heart of a frigid spouse.
I have long viewed it as a form of infidelity.
I don’t think the church wants to touch this issue, though. The Scriptural teaching is clear, but no one wants to address it. Some number of years ago, I attended a men’s event that was about men’s purity issues, such as pornography and lust. The presenter on the video used I Corinthians 6: “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.”
He then proceeded to tell us that the best way for men to flee sexual immorality was through accountability groups, but then stated that some men fell into the sin repeatedly and chastised them for “blaming it on their wives not being available to them.”
I was livid. When we broke into small groups, I asked why the presenter did not use God’s solution instead of suggesting accountability groups. The small group leaders looked puzzled and I had them pull out their Bibles and we read the context: Christian men (and women?) were going to prostitutes and Paul rebuked them for it. After the verses the presenter read, Paul then follows up with “because of the temptation to sexual immorality – get married and have sex! Lots of sex! Don’t stop having sex! If you do stop having sex, Satan is going to tempt you to sexual immorality.” That’s my paraphrase, anyway.
Many Christian men find themselves sexually frustrated. They find themselves falling into the easily-acquired lusts of the flesh and lust of the eyes, and the guilt and shame that go along with these sins. Their wives hold the key to strengthen their husbands, to secure their marriages, and to improve their own lot, yet they turn their backs on their Christian duties at home while singing praises and ministering in the church.
Maybe that’s where we should start. Don’t let any woman serve in the church unless her husband verifies she’s taking care of all of her duties at home.
Thanks for sharing that. Several years ago, we decided to house church because I couldn’t stand sitting through that kind of nonsense. I do think there is another dimension of the problem that goes beyond the mutual obligation of 1 Cor 7, and it’s a sexual shame that seeped into the church during the Victorian era. One of the early Adventist figures, John Harvey Kellogg (the cereal guy) advocated putting carbolic acid on little girls to keep them from abusing themselves. It’s perhaps the most hideous representation of a trend flowing from a shaming of sex that affected a vast swathe of Protestantism in the 19th century. That was an era that couldn’t use the words “arm” or “leg” or “pregnant” without feeling vulgar. Traces of that still blemish sexuality and make it impossible to see the Song of Solomon for what it is: erotic love poetry. I think women (and a few men) need to be reminded of their 1 Cor 7 “duty,” but they should also be taught it’s not really a “duty” at all. It’s a blessing.
biblical based marriage counseling and biblical based individual counseling for you both. sounds like your wife has some mental/emotional issues with sex/physical affection. if that doesn’t resolve it I would deal with redemptive church discipline first privately, then publicly if needed. if someone is living in open and wanton disregard for scripture 1 Cor 7, they need to be addressed. Genesis tells us God called Adam and Eve to be fruitful (have sex) and multiply before they sinned, so it is illogical to equate sex as sin, since it was created before they sinned
Yes, we have been to multiple counselors and all have given us similar advice – that I just needed to work harder to make her feel loved and then she would naturally respond to me. Though that may work for some, it’s certainly not biblical counsel and it took me 25 years to see that. Even the sex-specific counselors got nowhere with her and she eventually gave up out of frustration.
In any case, I’m not hot to turn my wife over to church discipline over this. I already feel like garbage when we have sex, having her being forced to have sex with me under threat of church discipline just doesn’t go that far in lighting my fire, y’know?
I don’t think sex proffered up as a result of guilt is the answer; in fact, for most men, I think that would be a “wilting” reality. But I do think that a denying spouse, if confronted with their sin, can find their sexuality revived, their eager and active sexuality restored by consideration of their sin — just as love can be restored by confronting how unloving we have been.
My wife and I have been married for over 30 years. Like all couples, we have our own occasional issues with intimacy. I’ve counseled many men on this topic. What I’ve learned and observed, is the number one killer of marriages is selfishness.
Many men don’t know their wives as well as they should because they don’t listen from the heart with the intent to really understand and know their wife as a woman…as a person. They put on their “Mr. Fix it” cap and try to tell their wife how to fix her problems, instead of just sitting with her and let her share how she feels. I learned the hard way as a young husband that my wife just wanted to be understood. And until I really learned that, our intimacy, physical and emotional, suffered. And too many men make their wives feel like sex objects because they don’t esteem her needs above his. Guys sit around, remote in hand, glued to the sports channel, while the wife watches the kids, cleans and cooks, exhausted after working all day. Then the guy wants sex and is mad when she says “I’m too tired.” Get a clue.
On the other side of this issue, I’ve met a lot of wives who are selfish me monsters. They don’t, or wont, understand that men’s needs are different than women’s.
But the root of the problem is selfishness.
The bible teaches we are to esteem the other persons needs above our own. And if both people would equally do this, the marriage would be loving and intimacy can flourish.
But here’s the thing guys; the bible says the woman is the weaker vessel. It says we are to dwell with her with that understanding. She is much more emotionally wired than we are. We as men need to be like Christ and Lead in Love. Die to self. Die to our own needs and love and serve her.
Living in this horribly fallen world, in weak, fallen bodies depletes our strength, energy and emotions. Especially for our wives. The demands or raising children and running a household can fray her nerves and work her fingers to the bone.
Start by thanking God for the incredible blessing and honor of loving and serving His own daughter—your wife. And then start treating her as such. And don’t do all this thinking if you do this your sex life will improve. That’s an agenda.
Do this, because by sacrificially and unselfishly loving and serving your wife, you will be loving, serving, and honoring God. And there is no higher calling than this
That pretty much mirrors the sort of assumptions you would find in most evangelical marriage encounters, but it ignores the Biblical reality upon which the article is based. The 1 Corinthians 7 text isn’t dependent on the relative condition (weaker, stronger) of each vessel. It’s universal: “do not deprive each other.” If you read the heartbreaking story of the other correspondent here (“Just Another Sad Husband”), you hear a man who had done precisely all of that and still faced routine, cold, denial. In the face of those realities, it is sometimes necessary to make real world assessments about who is being more selfish in a marriage.
True. I read the sad story of the man you mentioned. His story mirrored my own for the first fifteen years of my marriage.
But I came to the point where God asked me what was I prepared to do about it. What if she never changed? And more importantly, what about me needed to change? What was the root of our problem? What was truly at the heart of our issues?
God gave me grace to step out of His way and let Him work on my wife’s heart. And to love her unconditionally and have zero expectations on her sexually. That was in no way an easy thing to do. But He helped me get through it.
She could read the Word about not depriving me that way. But her refusal to obey the Word was a heart problem—a spiritual problem. It involved her relationship with God.
A husband can’t simply demand his wife give him sex because it is commanded in the Bible. Getting to the root of the problem reveals why she refuses to do so. Or why he refuses to do so.
There are times, certainly, to step away and see what happens, put no conditions on your partner, and leave it to prayer, but I would also ask you to see the latent feminism in your reply here and the church’s reply. A husband or a wife has every right to demand sex from their partner in matrimony. Failing to be “one flesh” is a spiritual violation of the marriage covenant. I certainly don’t think that demand is first on the list of responses (it’s probably the 100th, preceding threatened separation or divorce). If Pastors gave the “give sex” commandment to women as much as they gave the “give love” commandment to men, we would likely have stronger families and a stronger republic.
You’re missing the whole point of everything I’ve said. Pastors can preach from the pulpit that a husband has a right to sex from his wife. And back it up with the scripture you mentioned. I used to say the same thing.
What you’ve missed is the heart of the problem. It’s about love. Jesus said if a man (or a woman) loves Me they will keep My commands. So if a husband or wife really loves Jesus they’ll meet their spouses needs gladly because they love the Lord so much. Or at least they’ll want to…or try to. But simply because something is a command won’t force the person to do it. My whole point here is you should want to do it because you love the Lord and because you love your spouse. That’s all I’m saying.
I think you’re missing the point. Any problem involving unity of the body (not just marriage) has to proceed in an environment where everyone is reminded that love covers a multitude of sins. God is love. That’s an enormous, giant assumption, but one, as you correctly observe, that needs to be re-enforced.
But we win sinners by doing what first? Calling them to repentance. Men and women are routinely called to repentance for failing to love. They are _rarely_ if ever commanded to repent for failing to give their spouses physical love.
In the “Another Sad Husband” example, it’s quite possible that he’s married to a hardcore sinner who will never respond to love. In such cases, it’s perfectly appropriate to warn the poor woman she is destroying her marriage. Her partner’s love should proceed, in part, against that simple truth.
I never said she shouldn’t be warned, or at least counseled that she is ruining the marriage. But the point is why is she refusing him? That’s the heart of the matter. And it’s about her relationship with God on the one hand and on the other hand it’s about how she feels she’s being treated. What are her needs that are not being met? I’ve learned that it takes two to make a marriage. There’s always two sides to every story. We’ve read his sad story. But I think it would be very interesting and revealing to hear her story as well.
It would be interesting to hear both sides, I agree. In the real world, very few couples are brave enough to share their stories, so a lot of people suffer in silence. I’ve had women tell me their husbands haven’t touched them for more than a decade.
I’m with you 100% that the very first line of defense is backing off and offering unconditional love, but your response needs to be backed up by scriptural church discipline after a specified amount of time. A spouse (male or female) who withholds their affection may be a really hardcore sinner that falls into the “child of the devil” category who can never be reached. They are breaking the marriage covenant just as surely as someone who commits adultery.
There’s a quote I read from Love and Respect;
“Without love a woman responds without respect. And without respect a man responds without love.”
You could insert the word “intimacy” (or sex) where it says respect. It’s a circle. Because of the vastly different ways men and women are wired, we respond in kind. But I finally saw the change in my own marriage when I would respond to my wife with love or treat her with love unconditionally… she would respond to me much more in loving intimacy; physically, spiritually, and emotionally. And our marriage is healed and wonderful now. It’s not perfect. But it’s right.
And it grew out of a desire to love God and love each other more. And he continued to change our hearts. We see love and intimacy and respect and obedience as a get to… not as a got to. As a blessing and a privilege not as a command.
We’ve been married nearly 30 years now too. (This seems to be an exchange on this blog between dudes who have been through the 3 decade matrimony encounter.)
Good fathers, pastors, and husbands teach with both love and sometimes hard truths. When Peter announced he would defend Jesus to the death, Jesus didn’t wait around for 5 years and hope Peter would “get it.” He turned to his ardent disciple and said, “get thee behind me, Satan.”
Love always needs to be preached and it always is, because we’re so bone headed (and in this case, forgive me “bone pantsed”) that it takes a lot of repetition.
However, the church itself, and many husbands, are so cowed by feminism they are afraid to tell the ladies, “hey, girls, when you don’t have sex with your husbands, you’re putting them into temptation. Do you really want to do that?”
I used to tell my wife that same thing. And I told her men who are satisfied at home don’t cheat. I tried to help her see that when wives cover their husband’s physical needs it protects them from temptation.
But I’ll be a broken record here. ~How’s that workin for ya?
God spoke to my heart one day; “Is that getting you what you want?” “No” I said. “What do you want?” He asked. “Just a wife who really loves me and wants me.”
And He showed me very clearly that in my marriage I am reaping what I have been sowing. If I continue to sow seeds of emotional neglect that I will continue to reap a harvest of a loveless marriage with no true intimacy.
I agree that pastors should, with a true heart for marriage, address the challenges that many people face, and that is a lack of intimacy. And I agree to a point what you’re saying about temptation. But the bible says a man is tempted and led away by his own lust. So you’re only partly right there. And you could bring a wife up before the tribunal and call her to repent, that it’s a command to provide her husband with sex, and not to deprive him any further. But that’s not going to get good results.
What is needed in any individual is that they should want to repent for the right reasons. It all comes back to the same thing…it comes back to love and a relationship with God. The fruit of a right relationship with God will produce good fruit in our marriage…in our relationship and other aspects of our life.
But again as In my own marriage, there’s always an underlying reason when a wife derives her husband of sex. it’s not just because she’s a sinner and it’s all her fault. And I’m not a feminist in any way and that’s not feminist talk here.
In my own marriage for 15 years there was virtually no intimacy… And most of it was my fault because I was neglecting my wife emotionally, and in any other ways. When I started changing and truly loved her like Christ loved the church she responded in a wonderful way… And not because it’s a command in the bible. But because she wanted to. She responded with intimacy because she felt truly loved.
I think you want to be careful not to make your own experience general revelation for everyone else. If “all scripture is profitable for instruction,” you surely can’t be saying it is improper or “unprofitable” to tell a wife, or a congregant, what Paul said about denying each other. Teaching scripture is sometimes most important when the topic is uncomfortable.
We’ve had lots of intimacy in our marriage. 90%, I would say, comes about in response to unconditional love, but 10% comes from reminding the wife she has duties too. If they are the weaker vessels, we have to teach them. My wife is very intelligent, unlike many others, so she understands.
I’ve heard the same counsel from even before I was married. My in-laws-to-be took me and my fiancee to a marriage seminar where the teaching was literally “90% of problems in marriage are the man’s fault” followed by the typical spiel of emotional intimacy, breaking through the walls of her heart, yada, yada, yada. Believe me, I was patient for years after our marriage. I tried to be supportive, I demanded nothing. I learned that she hated me making the first move for intimacy, so I waited for her to do it, so she would be “comfortable.” Guess what? She could wait a very, very long time. As I mentioned earlier, once it was two years. You know what that does to a man?
I knew the Scriptures about marriage by heart. I knew what my role was, I knew what her role was. I would ask her what I could do to make things better between us. She provided me with a list. You’ve seen them before: be the spiritual leader at home, help out more around the house, spend more time with the kids, have a regular date night. Basically every Focus on the Family episode you’ve ever heard. I did all these things. I soon realized she was dissatisfied with me no matter what I did: not a good enough spiritual leader, not a good enough husband, not a good enough father. The only thing she seemed to appreciate me for was for being a good provider. When I brought this to her attention, she said that I had a skewed view of what I actually did. At that point I started tracking what I did – every chore, all the things I did with the kids, all the family devotions, all the things we did together both individually and as a family, as well as all the “her time” I allowed her away from home and the kids.
After about 6 months, we had another argument where her same old complaints were brought to the table. I told her she was incorrect and that she didn’t have a clear understanding of what I actually did and contributed. When I informed her that I had been tracking what part I played in the family and at home, she refused to look at my records, saying that I had faked them. As a man who has been devoted to integrity, this was incredibly hurtful. If she didn’t see it happen, it never happened, and even if it did happen, it could be forgotten in her narrative of my failures. I realized at that point that I had basically become a trained monkey – whenever I did the dishes or spent the evening playing games with the kids while she was out, I worked it out so that I would get “credit” by her seeing or hearing about it. It will seem petty, but for awhile after that, I chose not to do anything that she would see me doing.
In any case, as I said, I know what my role is – and if I didn’t love my wife like Christ loves the church and been obedient to him, I would have left her a long time ago. I know the Scriptures on divorce very well, as I have looked for a loophole to release me from this torture. When you live in a state of constant rejection it takes a huge toll on you, even if you are outwardly pleasant to one another. I’ve wished that I would die, that my wife would die, that she would commit adultery… I’ve even though of committing adultery myself to give her an excuse to leave me. You think weird and stupid thoughts when in a crisis.
I find it interesting that much time is spent on preaching that husbands should love their wives as Christ loves his church, but little attention is given to the verse that commands wives to love their husbands. While we think of love as an emotional feeling, the Scriptures do not use it that way. In fact, the love that husbands are to show wives is a variation of agape in Greek, which many people people mistakenly define as a “self-sacrificing love.” While it can have shades of sacrificial love in it, agape love is love that is focused on the object of affection. For example, “love not the world” is “agape not the world,” or, don’t make the world an object of your affections. In context in I Corinthians, where Paul has just rebuked the Christians from visiting prostitutes, it’s more than reasonable to read this as “husbands, make your wives the object of your affection, just as Christ did for the church” Self sacrifice flows from this , true, but some of the “self-sacrifice” read into this by modern-day would-be teachers is laugh out loud funny. It reads like a let-your-wife-do-whatever-her-little-heart-desires-and-you-support-her or you’re not loving her like Jesus.
The verses that command women to love their husbands are in Titus 2. Paul instructs that older women should “train the younger women to love their husbands.” The word for love used here is not the same word for love in the Greek as the verse in I Corinthians. This is the Greek word philos – which is the love of friendship or brotherly love. Both agape and philos are words of action and not just feeling. Wives are commanded to be a friend to their husband. (Also interesting is the fact that women need to be TRAINED to love their husbands – this is not a natural thing for them! Love means something different than we think it does.)
While the “be emotionally available, reach her heart, let her know she is loved” advice may work for some, none of this advice is strictly Scriptural, whereas distinct commands are. My wife has claimed at many times throughout our marriage that she needs an emotional connection with me to have sex with me. Yet when our emotional connection was strongest, at the beginning of our marriage, sex was still not wanted. Today, thirty years later, her emotional connection to me is strong enough that she wants to go on dates with me, go on trips with me, hang out with me at home, cuddle with me at night, but it’s not strong enough to want to have sex with me. So I call BS.
Proverbs 14:1 says: “The wisest of women builds her house, but folly with her own hands tears it down.” In my mind, our house has been torn to the foundations and now my wife gets to live in the ashes she has created for herself. I am satisfied that I have done all I can to reverse my situation. I will still fulfill my responsibilities to my wife. But I have decided to stop living for her and for her approval, or in hope that the situation will change. I can tell you the last two+ weeks have been almost a relief. No expectations, no hoping she’ll finally wake up to what she’s doing to me, no laying in bed until the wee hours of the morning wondering why she can’t love me. It’s not what I ever wanted, but it’s something I can live with.
Just Another Sad Husband: Incredibly powerful stuff. As I wrote to Mr. Faulkner, I think corrective and instructional scripture that would be used on any other occasion to address a problem is actually ridiculed, (“bible thumping” according to Mark), when it applies to a wife’s obligations to her husband. Imagine that one in reverse. Suppose a woman was left emotionally high and dry by a checked out husband early on in their marriage, and she tearfully pointed out scriptures indicating a husband’s obligation to love his wife, (your word study there is fascinating), and a pastor told her, “stop thumping the Bible on that one and just love your husband unconditionally; you’re not going to get anywhere lecturing him.” Nowadays, the pastor would almost be considered emotionally abusive of a distressed woman. Counseling a man who hasn’t had sex with his wife in two years to “just be patient, loving, and unconditional” is a gross insult to the grieving wounded.
..and I totally agree that wives need to be trained. You can’t reform someone completely by praying for thought bubbles to appear in their heads.
P.S. If you don’t think feminism hasn’t clouded _all_ of our minds, you haven’t been watching.
Feminism has not clouded my mind one bit.
I’m expounding on what the Bible teaches. I said I don’t disagree with you that pastors should teach that we should not deprive each other because that’s what the word says. But again The Good Seed of the word falls on different kinds of soils, if it falls on a rock hard heart that’s not going to penetrate and take root and bear good fruit. So if a heart is hard how do you soften that heart. That’s what we have to look at.
I am to wash my wife with the water of the word. And do so in love, not harshness. Not scrub it into her violently with a steel bristle brush and caustic lye soap.
We plant the seed of the word others water. But the Lord gives increase and only him. Only God can change the heart. And I found it to be much much more effectiive to just speak the word in love not in harshness. And then my wife is accountable to God in how she responds.
I never went 15 years without intimacy so I’m not sure what your approach was, but no one advocates “harshness,” just Biblical truth: any spouse (male or female) who withholds physical affection is putting themselves under temptation.
For me intimacy is totally different than obligatory sex. I don’t want any part of a begrudging duty that I would have to remind my wife that she is commanded to perform. That’s not intimacy.
Just to be clear, are you saying wives shouldn’t take Biblical advice? Are you saying that Biblical rebuke won’t restore intimacy? Are you saying that “weaker vessels” can’t be taught? These are serious questions. I think you understand I _agree_ with you that the primary line of defense is unqualified love, but in some cases (and judging from my email many cases), have to be confronted with some difficult biblical truths.
Not at all. I just said we are to wash our wives with the water of the word. That’s part of our calling as a husband and as the spiritual leader of our family. So yes we’re supposed to do that. But also part of preaching and teaching that word is to walk in it. Walk in the truth and be the example and lead in love.
Here’s a personal example. When I hear a fire-and-brimstone preacher on TV yelling and shouting and screaming and frothing at the mouth that doesn’t speak to my heart it just turns me off and it’s a distraction for me. When I hear a brother preaching or teaching the word of God and just speaking it to me as if I’m a brother or friend if they’re preaching that truth in righteousness I receive it in my heart because my heart is open and I can actually hear what they’re saying and applying.
It’s the same way when I wash my wife with the water of the word. I share with her what God is showing me in the Word but more importantly I’m walking in that word and she sees me leading in love being the example. I’m not like sounding brass or a clanging cymbal without love, which profits me nothing.
The words that we speak are all important, no question. But the way that we say them are also very important.
Interesting. I respond to some ministers that way. I don’t sense a lot of love coming from John MacArthur, for example, so it’s difficult to take him seriously. (He also takes a very legalistic, pietistic view on some subjects.)
But I don’t think you can wash your wife in the Word without including all of the Word and specifically the parts she needs to be convicted by. You need to convey those in love, but you need to convey them. When was the last time you actually heard a pastor preach 1 Cor 7 (“Do not deny”) for example? If your “unqualified love” includes censoring scripture, you are on the wrong track.
Our marriage really begin to change for the better about 15 years ago. it was after a time of me praying that God would just really bless my wife and give her wisdom and show her his will for her and just to bless her with his favor and so on. And the more that I spent time reading and studying the word and praying and she saw the change in me for the better she began spending more time in the word and praying too. And I found that as I continued to just pray that God would speak his wisdom and Truth to her she would soon read those things in the word like from 1st Corinthians about do not deprive one another and she started to change and our life has continued to improve together and we’ve grown much much closer and our intimacy has improved. And he’s changing her from Faith to Faith and from glory to glory. It’s been a remarkable transformation for both of us.
I suspect you and I could go round and round about this, and I hope you understand I agree that prayer, stepping away, unqualified love are the most effective tools — likely in any situation, but to illustrate the problem with your thinking, imagine someone routinely stealing something from you. Imagine an employee who you know for certain is stealing $20 from the cash drawer every day. You can choose to forgive. You can choose to love. But you don’t wait for God to pop a magic thought bubble in their head. Words are to be used. In love, to be certain, but He didn’t make us sentient, talking, thinking creatures for nothing. If your wife can’t take specific rebuke, in love, there is a very large problem.
Ha-ha. 🙂 I never said I didn’t show her her need of correction in the Word. You just assumed that.
I have also been speaking to what is most effective
The parable of the soils is critical to this discussion. You can preach and teach the Word to someone all you want but if the soil of their heart is hard as a rock that seed will bounce right off. It cannot penetrate granite. (See Matthew ch 13)
So when you are in that difficult situation what do you do? You pray that God will break up the hard ground of a persons heart. And that may take a very long season. But once that hard heart softens, the good seed of the Word can go deep and take root and bear good fruit to the Lord. Never underestimate the power of prayer
Re: Assumptions..
You wrote: “And I found that as I continued to just pray that God would speak his wisdom and Truth to her she would soon read those things in the word like from 1st Corinthians about do not deprive one another..”
Sorry, but I’ve seen this too much not to comment. There are difficult passages in scripture and people pray that God will just get the offending person to read them. He gave you the scripture so that you could teach it to her. You can pray that she’ll receive it, and you can pray that she’ll read it but all scripture is there for instruction and rebuke.
:-). No… throughout the course of this entire discussion I’ve never once said I didn’t correct her from the Word.
Doesn’t this sound like apologizing for scripture: “And I thumped the Bible and showed her where she was wrong..” Obviously your attitude was bad, but repeating the scripture wasn’t bad, and praying that she would discover it after God did your job for you. Sounds a tad fatalistic, don’t you think?
I’m guessing you must have been on the debate team in college as it seems you just like to debate for debatings sake. So I won’t bother you any further.
But I will leave you with this final thought… I have been sharing what I’ve seen to be effective and not be effective after over 30 years of marriage and today and for the last 15 years our intimacy has been really good though not perfect. And today my wife submits to me as her husband because she loves the Lord and she loves me and she doesn’t deprive me because she loves the Lord and she loves me. And ultimately she loves his word and she wants to obey God and serve her husband because she loves the Lord. Which is what it’s all about.
Peace to you friend.
Hah, no, I chose to engage you because I think you typify not so much what is wrong with Christian marriage encounters as what is “incomplete.” Love is 90% of the solution, but correction is part of the solution as well. I’ve seen this sort of feminism in the church (never hold women accountable, never correct them from the pulpit, save the hard doctrines for men), that it’s no wonder young people are leaving the church. It has become soft.
Mark, how many children do you have?
1 Cor 7 says we are not to deprive my wife. no where does it say that she is to demand it from me. it’s no spouses right to browbeat their spouse for sex, otherwise the other is just a piece of meat
Demanding that the marriage estate include sex is not “browbeating” or treating a spouse as “a piece of meat.” It’s merely reaffirming the terms of the covenant. The denying spouse has the right to withhold, but also to suffer the consequences of a broken, and possibly, terminated marriage.
Sad, sad reality. Fantastic article. Major wake-up call for pastors. And my similar stance is one reason I don’t do a lot of marital counselling…
You state: “Young husbands, you need to train your wives. Young wives, you need to make your expectations clear.”
This 55 year, Jim, believes: Newlyweds need to make their clear expectations from, and for, eachother.
– A dog is trained
Re: “trained..”
So are wives. So are husbands. So are employees. If you think only a dog is trained, I’m glad you’re not a commercial airline pilot.
Your statement “Young husbands, you need to train your wives.” sounds/reads much like the Sharia Law you reportedly despise.
Don’t be absurd. Reducing a father’s leadership role in a home, and a marriage, to “sharia” law is to show an inability to make rather obvious distinctions. Are you seriously going to compare, say, Jim Dobson to a polygamous wife-beater in Pakistan? Be serious.
You cite the apostle Paul throughout your blog. Paul did not say; Husband’s rule, train, take authority over or discipline your wives. Paul did say “Love your wife as your own body”. Jesus taught us to love and serve God” – Not to take authority from others. Adam was not commanded to lead, rule, or take authourity over Eve, nor are husband’s commanded to do so. Matt 15:8-9 People raise their hands and claim to be close to God, while they are actually following the commandments of men.
Your defence in stating “Young husband’s, you need to train your wives.” is incongruous.
So you missed Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians? “Submit to your husband as to the Lord?” Ephesians 5:22?
“Ephesians 5:22–33 is an often-cited but frequently misunderstood passage. Here, Paul explains how Christian husbands and wives should apply their understanding of salvation within their marriage. Wives are commanded to ”submit” to their husbands as they would to Christ, and to show them respect. Often overlooked, however, is that men are equally obligated. Husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church: with humility and sacrifice, as if caring for their own bodies. Despite popular myth, the Bible does not permit either sex to be abusive or unloving within a marriage.”
You are _such_ a silly goose. Who is arguing for “either sex to be abusive or unloving within a marriage?”
Matt 18:6 “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for HIM that a millstone were hanged about his head, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
You should consider that verse _very_ carefully, Ann.
I am a little one Jim.
Like I say. You need to be very careful playing fast and loose with scripture, because that’s exactly what you’re doing. You accuse a brother of advocating “Sharia law,” and then you hide behind a “little one” pup tent?
It’s obvious Jim your belief is that women are evil. You feel threatened at the thought of wives having the right to stop their husbands from ruling them. Your platform on “Free Speech” is a lie. It’s too bad … you have plenty to say and engaging as it is, you serve no purpose to those following you. A hollow soul
It’s pointless for me to engage in a “discussion” with someone who makes corrosive assumptions about my motivations. Accusing your correspondents of thinking women are “evil,” or longing for “sharia” law is the stuff of negative fantasy. You seem to live in a very dark place. Come on out into the light.